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5 mm ammo is available again !

5K views 52 replies 28 participants last post by  gpm6 
#1 · (Edited)
According to this from varminter.com " 5 mm ammo is available again !" :bthumb: http://www.varminter.com/2008/5mmrrm.html OOPS,Brain Fart ----should have read Recumbent's post! My only defense,"Its Back" thread title has no mention of 5 mm ammo.
 
#4 ·
Response from Aguila

I received this response when I inquired about why it said nothing on their website about the 5mm and when ammo would be available. Looks like its a done deal.

OUR WEB SITE IS DOWN FOR UPDATING, THE AMMUNITION IS BEING SHIPPED THIS WEEK
AND WILL BE AVAILABLE AFTER THE SHOT SHOW, PLEASE CHECK BACK WITH US, THANKS
FOR YOUR INTEREST.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Be patient....from what I have been reading..... this is one of those joint projects that has been quietly in the works by more then one party.

It makes sense that if somebody is going to tool up a fortune in research, development, and equipment.....he's going to make sure that others in the gun business will go along in helping to support the concept. -Much in the same way that Hornady made darn sure rifles were made to accomodate their new 17HMR cartridge.

I'm sure a new rifle or two will soon be released as well.

No need to jump on old Remington rifles priced at $600, when a new and better designed modern rifle can soon be had.
 
#9 ·
Imagine.....

Imagine.....a Savage mako or BV in 5mm Remington mag. Read an article from a link sent by a friend. They tested the Aguila 5mm mag 30 gr. ammo. It actually ran 2,400 fps over the chrono. The goups and accuracy gave me goosebumps:eek: Way to go Aguila:bthumb: After shooting my fathers remmy 5mm as a kid to rid our farm of woodchucks, I think they shot themselves in the butt for not remarketing ammo after THOUSANDS of request from the consumers. After all.....we are "just" consumers right? Our requests...preferences and desires mean nothing? Another case of a forgeign company listening to the consumer and providing customer service....vice trying to dictate what we want. We gotta wake up America..ask ourselves why are so many of the products we buy are imported? Answer...a good company is driven by the consumer and his/her needs. Not what an engineer and CEO tell us we want or need. *Gets down off soapbox*...
:yeahthat:
 
#10 ·
anyone know what cal bullet it would take if blown out to a straight wall case???..... is it a .25rf???.....

somehow, i think that may have just as much potential in the marketplace with the modern bullets available...

and, using this larger parent case for a .17mag may get closer to the magic 3000fps, also.....

any interest in a .25, .27, or .30 cal rimfire of a similar length???

cletus
 
#16 ·
anyone know what cal bullet it would take if blown out to a straight wall case???..... is it a .25rf???.....
..................
any interest in a .25, .27, or .30 cal rimfire of a similar length???

cletus
IIRC, the 5mm was just slightly larger than the 22mag...and I mean SLIGHTLY. If you look at the pictures in the article linked above, you'll see the case really isn't much bigger length or diamter than the case for the HMR/WMR.

I can't see much use for anything much bigger than the 22mag.
Also, the rimfire design can only handle so much pressure. Add to the fact "premium" rimfire ammo is darn near as expensive as reloading many current centerfire calibers. Being a rimfire design is really a handicap for power.

I doubt we'd ever see a new .27 or .30 caliber rimfire. I wouldn't be entirely suprised to see a .25, but I can't see it catching on too well....the trend right now seems to be blazing fast and flat shooting--this is something larger calibers just won't be able to due with the restrictions that rimfire cases mandate.

I say BRING ON THE 5MM. You can sure as heck be it'll be every bit as expensive as the HMR (if not a touch MORE--especially immediately after it's release). I'd probably sell my HMR and buy one. :bthumb:
 
#11 · (Edited)
The bullet is 0.2045" or 20-caliber. The case is slightly larger in diameter than the 22WMR.

I was always impressed with the ballistics. The caliber was produced with a 38 grain bullet initially and was designed to perform better than the 22WMR. If it catches on, I would expect to see ammunition produced with the larger bullet for more ft-lbs at the target and perhaps better stability in the wind. But right now it is to compete with the 17HMR.
 
#17 ·
The 2-3 , 5mm rem mag rimfires I shot back in the early 70's..
They were pretty decent rifles..
Dimes at 50 yard's with iron sights...:t
Pretty normal..
Not many here , needed scope's, nor could they offord decent reliable ones..
They used real jacketed bullets.
I beleive the case itself was even thicker than the 22 lr's or mag's..
Most here figured they were a pretty reliable , night time deer rifle..;)
I know of at least one of the three I shot , that ended up in the DNR's hands..:rolleyes:
 
#18 ·
The 5mm mag will have to be priced a bit high to recover R&D costs, plus there won't be that many rifles out there chambered for it (at least initially). I'd expect it to be higher than 17HMR fopr sure. The big question is will the 5mm replace the .22WMR and the 17HMR, or will it be a niche round? Can't say I'm ready to retire my 17, or .22WMR just yet. Are there enough believers out there to give the 5mm a jump start? I remember back when I owned my Remington 591 it was supposed to be the rimfire that was going to make the .22WMR disappear. Didn't happen and I ended up with a gun that I couldn't get ammo for. Does anyone think it will take off any better this time around? One thing it might achieve is to force Hornady to push the 17HMR ever further and perhaps lower its ammo prices. That would be a good thing.
 
#19 ·
....... The big question is will the 5mm replace the .22WMR and the 17HMR, or will it be a niche round?

...... I remember back when I owned my Remington 591 it was supposed to be the rimfire that was going to make the .22WMR disappear.

Does anyone think it will take off any better this time around?
The 5mm should shoot as flat as a 17 HMR at 100 yards, but hit a lot harder. It will do everything better then the 22 Mag....as the 22 mag delivers more energy up close when compared to the 17HMR, but is more like a lumbering rock out of a sling at 100 yards and beyond. Don't even attempt using the 22 mag at 150 yards!

Yes, it will do A LOT better this time around. 25 years ago nobody heard of a 20 caliber, or a bottleneck rimfire called the HMR.
Bet you once the big boys start offering rifles and ammo, the 22 mag sales will drop next to nothing.
 
#20 ·
There is a proven market for the 5mm but at the current $27 a box of 50 its not going to launch very well. At least thats the one on line price I see. The round is expected to cost more than a wmr or 17, but dealers that may price gouge due to availability can leave a bad taste about the round. The round is sure to fly if greed doesnt kill it.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Having been very heart broken that my 3/4" MOA (at 100 yards) 1974 Remington 5MM rifle could not be fired due to the ammo being discontinued, I foolishly thought that a 22 Magnum Rifle with some extra effort, could be coaxed to deliver the same accuracy or at least close anyway. Knowing that Marlin advertises their heavy barreled rifle as being very accurate, I decided this would be the rifle to test this endeavor.

So, I set out to find my dream 22 magnum replacement for my Remington 5mm, by starting with TWO new Marlin SS heavy barrel 982VS rifles. I prepped the barrels, and spent many hours at the range checking which of the two rifles would shoot the best group from the many different kinds of ammo I had bought at the store, and ordered on the internet as well.

I then kept the best rifle of the two which would fire tighter groups, and sold off the other rifle. Incidently, they both were very close in accuracy out of the box.

I got rid of the flimsy black plastic stock, and bought a $75 laminated stock from Marlin for this rifle. I also bought the necessary trigger guard for it. I then had Precision Barrel Works do a beautiful glass bed job on the rifle for $130. I put a $69 1 lb Basx trigger on the rifle, which would release and break like glass. All shooting was done on a Hart bench rest, with an 18X Bushnell Banner scope at 50 yards, using wind flags. (Judging from the photo, would you say the scope held zero pretty good?)

Out of desperation, after not being satisfied with the groups I was getting, I resorted to reloading the Winchester Supreme ammo. This ammo had been the best out of all the factory ammo had tried. Reloded, I could regularly get 5 shot groups like as seen in the photo. (no silly 3 shot group nonsense.)

This is my 50 yard target and results with my reloaded ammo at 50 yards. 1/4" aint bad....huh?



Now, a photo of what my reloads do at 100 yards out of the same rifle and Hart rifle rest:

http://

You DON'T want to see what the FACTORY ammo does at 100 yards. Let's just say in my books I would rate it as "bunny rabbit accurate". And for some guys, that's probably good enough.

This was typical of the kind of groups I would get. At 100 yards, three of my shots could be relied on to knock the butt off your 223 case too. For that matter, I could hit that 223 case every time at 50 yards very easilly. But, I don't kid myself. I don't choose a target to show off and then claim it is representative of the rifle's accuracy. If a rifle can't shoot inside of 1" at 100 yards fairly consistantly, then I get rid of it!

And get rid of this rifle is what I did! It was the biggest waste of MY TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY! I'll never own another 22 magnum in my life. If I was a hunter, and wanted knock down power up close in a rimfire, then the 22 magnum would be fine. But, if I want a field rifle with great 100 yard accuracy, the 22 magnum doesn't cut it. And what I mean by accuracy is CONSISTANT sub 1" groups. The 17HMR has it, the old 5mm had did too, the 22 mag DOESN'T.

If you guys have 22 magnum rifles that can be relied on to shoot 5 shot sub 1" MOA groups fairly regularly, then good for you. You better hang onto it. Because they are far and few, and are the rare acception and not the rule. I have heard some guys make the claim to their owning such "tack-drivers", but think 99% of these guys are exagerating, as I have never seen a sub 1" MOA 5 shot group ever posted. I have checked the archives and done many searches only to hear others who owned top end rifles like the Anschutz (for an example) express how they too were also very discouraged with their 22 mag. YES, I have one such sub MOA group. Would you like me to post the photo of the group I fired using factory Supreme ammo? .....Not being a BS artist, I can tell you that I wouldn't bother to post the 5 shot group, because I really think it was a fluke, and not representative of the rifles true mediocre accuracy.

As for 150-200 yard shooting....Well, sure if I say that the 22 magnum is a poor 150 yard rifle, then somebody can't help but to be to insist respond that it's just fine for 150 yard acurate shooting. You know.... some guys target shoot their 22LR at 100 yards.....and there's been many deer killed with the 22LR too.....but does that make it the great bullet for the task?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

PS There, I match your roll eyes.....and bid you an extra one for good measure.
 
#30 · (Edited)
As for 150-200 yard shooting....Well, sure if I say that the 22 magnum is a poor 150 yard rifle, then somebody can't help but to be to insist respond that it's just fine for 150 yard acurate shooting. You know.... some guys target shoot their 22LR at 100 yards.....and there's been many deer killed with the 22LR too.....but does that make it the great bullet for the task?
You are the one who said people shouldn't bother to shoot the .22 mag at those distances because the round won't cut it. Obviously, "bothering" worked for me. I guess I own another "freak," but then since I didn't buy two of exactly the same thing, I can't claim to be an expert in the subject of .22 mag rifles. So, if 99% of the people that claim good accuracy with their .22 mags are exaggerating, are 99% of the people that claim good accuracy with other calibers exaggerating, too. Or, does owning a .22 mag make someone more prone to exaggeration?

But anyway, what I find fascinating is what compels people to declare a cartridge dead with such haste. Here's a 3rd :rolleyes: for you.

***EDIT:

22ingaround,

I just rembered this excerp from a web page about reloading the .22 mag:

After extensive testing with the .22 Cooper, Calhoun said he found the 37-grainer was the lightest slug for this diameter than would maintain good accuracy. He has tested bullets down to 30 grains. "The bullets just started to get too short and stubby to have any aerodynamics," said Calhoun. "We found the 37-grainer was just about as light as you could go and still shoot."

This mirrors what most .22 magnum shooters have found: that the 40-grain factory loads shoot much better than the high-speed 30-grain loads.
It sounds like your choice of the 34-grain JHP from the Winchester Supreme rounds was a poor one in terms of accuracy. 33 or even 30 grain V-Max or perhaps good-old fashion 40-grainers would've been better choices as all of those bullets are longer than the Win Supreme slug. Poor bullet choice is neither the fault of the rifle nor the .22 WMR per se.
 
#25 ·
I guess owning a 22 Hornet is very much why,, when I got a 17 HMR I realized it was just another cartridge,, and nothing really very spectacular..
But then,, it really is,, just another rimfire...
And really,, just another cartridge... ;)
The 5mm Rem,, had lot's more going for it than the 17MR..
As does the 22 Mag..
The 5mm Rem,, probebly was more a product of poor marketing than anything elce..
Trying to take on Winchester and it's 22 Mag, was not the Best Idea, when Winchester was pretty healthy..
Is it not quite ironic?
That a cartridge with mearly 50,000 rifles chambered for it,, would take on one that there were already hundred's of thousands of out there..?
And try to defete it? (or replace it)
Only to dry on the vine..
A victem of it's own excesses??
I picked up my Hornet,, within a year and a half of my 22 Mag..
It's really just another tool in the box..
All my rifles are pretty much hunting rigs..
Never seen much use, for gun's that needed to be held in place on a rest..
Varnint's and critter's ,,only seem to stick around a range so long..:D
And paper never really seemed to eat that well.. or nessesarly tell the truth either..
Some people like setting at benches,, and really ,, more power to them..
Some people like a rifle,, that places the first round,, where they want it..
That where I am..;)
It really funny to me,, to listen to those that have found the round, that ends all..
Guess because,, many of us learned the arc of a 22 rimfire,, be it short, long, or long rifle..And the advantages of each..;)
The 22 Mag,, accually adds to that range,, and beleive it ot not,, The 22 Hornet does too..
But it's not a rimfire..:eek:
Most of us accually did learn the arc, without, the great advantage :confused: of sale's and marketng..:bthumb:
You might want to try that..:)
Plenty of people use there 22 Mag's at ranges well over 150 yard's..
Pretty effectivly too, I might add..
If you read enough about the 22 Hornet,, you will see some only beleive in that round, for about 150 yard's...
And some,, can about double those ranges.. ;)
But I can agree about one thing..
Some people have no business trying to shoot anything over 150 yard's..
Or at 50??
But I sure would not blame the 22 Mag cartridge... ;)
Even if I could not toss a rock...
 
#27 ·
GMD 1950,

Though my automatic response is to observe and wonder why the holes look so needle sized and more like a 17HMR, there is no reason for me to assume there was trickery involved, and that you would go out of your way to misrepresent. If I was to post some odd 22 mag goups like that, I would put a ruler or a caliper next to it as a reference point. Then I'd frame it and hang it on the wall with the family pictures.

I didn't say that there isn't a 22 Magnum rifle that can shoot sub MOA regularly. I just said that it's not normal.

Hang onto your rifle. Like a black-hole it's a freak of the physical world.

Uncle Jed,
I own an old double trigger CZ 22Hornet, and an old european styled Anschutz 22 Hornet with the schnabel forend stock. Both are capable of sub 1" MOA, but as you said, they are not rimfire rifles. I in fact intend some day to convert the Anschutz to a 17 Ackly Hornet improved.

That simple $69 Remington 5mm rifle I once owned was my favorite field rifle. I had never before or since owned a "cheap" rimfire that easilly shot sub 1". This was a rifle I had bought when I was young man that didn't know anything about prepping a barrel, bench rests, fine trigger pull, bedding, or using anything other then a cheap 3x-7x .22 scope.
 
#28 ·
Though my automatic response is to observe and wonder why the holes look so needle sized and more like a 17HMR, there is no reason for me to assume there was trickery involved, and that you would go out of your way to misrepresent. If I was to post some odd 22 mag goups like that, I would put a ruler or a caliper next to it as a reference point. Then I'd frame it and hang it on the wall with the family pictures.

I didn't say that there isn't a 22 Magnum rifle that can shoot sub MOA regularly. I just said that it's not normal.

Hang onto your rifle. Like a black-hole it's a freak of the physical world. Quoted from .22ingaround

Boy you really want to put your foot in it don't you, lol. Fortunately for you I could care less what your automatic or even slowly reasoned response is. Try looking at the targets you'll see a grid printed on them, even a cursory observation would indicate that the hash lines are at 1 inch intervals. The targets are printed on 65 lb card stock, Jacketed bullets seldom cut any where near full caliber holes. I think you should learn a lot more about your subject matter before sticking your foot so deep into your mouth. Oh and I traded that rifle off for one with much better wood, I've not had a problem finding accurate .22wmr's.:D

Gerald
 
#31 ·
Being a dedicated Predator hunter and at times forced to use a rimfire by state law, I've used a 22mag. for darn near 45yrs. As a young Fox hunter back then the choices were shotgun (I'm not much on those), 22lr., 22mag., or 5mm. I chose the 22mag. based solely on rifle looks which is much the same as I do now. I know, I rather vain.:eek: Savage and Winchester were offering the 22mag., while Remington the 5mm., but one of the new entries on the block was also being offered by Savage. A Savage/Anschutz 164M with some of the best lines I'd ever seen.:bthumb: I bought one in 22mag.! Now that rifle shoots. I didn't know how well back then, nor did I even know how much better it would shoot with a trigger adjustment. That all came 10 or 15yrs. later. All I knew was that a Fox from the end of the muzzle out to about 100yds. was a dead Fox. Also, back then the only 22mag. offerings I knew of was the Win. 40gr.hp. and that is all I ever used. In my opinion it is the darn hunting round made, even today.

Fast forward 40 plus years and several misfires from the Anschutz and I started looking for another dedicated Fox/Coyote rimfire. Upon recommendation I bought a CZ. That was a very nice accurate 22mag. that would shoot as well as GMD1950's CZ. But, it had a problem. It wouldn't feed and to make that a short story, I got rid of it and bought a Browning A Bolt. It is not much of a shooter with Win. 40gr.hp's, but it works. Recently I was talked into buying a Sako Quad in 22mag. (thanks Gerald [gmd1950]). When I picked up mine from the dealer I was invited by GMD1950 to shoot his. Needless to say, I was impressed and mine shoots every bit as good as my Anschutz with Win. 40gr.hp's. The Sako I bought is factory stock with only a trigger adjustment that even my 7yr. old could do. I bought this to strictly be a hunting rifle, so it only wears a 2X7 scope. At 40yds., 10 rounds of the Win. will go into a .4" hole. Having only a short time to zero the Sako for 100yds., below is the target I shot in comparison to my A Bolt. I've said all of this only to say that a 22mag. will shoot small little groups at 100yds. and is the equal of the 5mm. I've owned several 22mags. in the past, some would shoot and some would not. Much the same as the 22lr. I've owned. I'm betting that with some work and more scope, my Anschutz and Sako will shoot with the Marlin that
22ingaround put so much money and time in. Neither one of those 22mags. I bought cost over $500 dollars and out of the box weighted less than 6lbs.

I guess I'm done with my little dissertation.:D

K22

There's suppose to be 4 shots from the Browning. The paper is a bit to wide for my scanner.

 
#33 ·
Nopal,

You can probably imagine that reloading a 22 magnum is beyond what most folks would attempt. After spending so much time and money into this rifle, I was not about to just write it off yet as a reject. But, by the time I had finally given up, I had tried most available factory cartridges, and exausted all reloads attempts.

If you look at the sloppy scribble on my target reloads photos, you will see that both 40 and 45 grain Sierras were used. Both delivered 1/4" groups at 50 yards....not 34 grain Supremes. While the 34 grain Winchester Supreme cartridges gave the best accuracy for factory rounds, they were bought and used primarilly in my reloads for the case and powder componentsd. The best accuracy was derived by using the hull and powder. Like I said; I was able to get 5 shot 1/4" accuracy at 50 yards pretty regularly with my reloads.
BTW...if anybody thinks I didn't try the magnificent and praised Remington Premier's in the plastic box (made by CCI) they were amongst the most expensive cartridges and the WORST PERFORMERS. The original Remington cardboard box green tip Premiers were the most accurate factory cartridges, delivering about 1" 100 yard groups....BUT LIKE SO MANY RIMFIRE CARTRIDGES, THEY WERE DISCONTINUED. The replacement tan tip CCI Premier's in this rifle were awfull and gave me 2" groups!

So, no matter what I did, 1" MOA was not attainable at 100 yards.

I had tried everything from 33 grain Hornady's on up to 53 grain BTHP. All produced groups with flyers.....at 100 yards.

If you guys would talk with the barrel makers bout the 22 magnum, (as I have done), they will tell you that unlike 22LR, the 22 magnum is NOT used in competiton shooting. Therefore, competion grade reamers and chambers, as well as a choice of barrel twists, are very limited.

My Marlin 982VS had a very slow 1-16 twist, and who knows what kind of chamber was reamed into it. None of this, evidently, is geared for the kind of 100 yard I sought. At least not with the Marlin 982VS.

Many owners of a rifle like mine would be delighted with hitting a quarter at 50 or 75 yards every time. They would classify this as "very fine acuracy", a "tack driver" or a "laser gun" . The term "very fine acuracy" is subject to one's own interpretation.

Very simply, 5 shots commonly fired inside of 1" at 100 yards is how I interpret it.
 
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